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Zhuge_Liang

[Feedback] The direction

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So I have played the map a couple of rounds just to see how much different  it is from Seprinth ver. After taking a hard look at it, I think the map did in fact steer off of the wheels by a huge margin. Originally the map focused heavily on the reality of the Romance of the three kingdoms games. Not the movies, not the fantasies, but the game themselves. In fact the game is loosely based off of Romance of the three kingdoms 11, 10 and 9.

When I play the map it feels like its in the direction of Azeroth Wars. Like its trying to be this huge diverse RP map with a blend of strategy elements to a point where it leaves most people feeling a bit overwhelmed by the lack of focus.

The units haven't changed much from Seps adaptation, a few buffs here and there. Along with some unique unit types to spice up the already straight forward  RTS flavor it already presented. The events that were in the game such as famine, low income do bring that Romance of the three kingdoms feel into it. However things like the bengal throw the game off almost entirely.  Japanese army in the three kingdoms time just is in poor taste and anyone who is a SW/DW fan knows this. In fact most of us took a huge laugh seeing it, even though we thought it was creative. The idea originally for the map was not to include so many unit types. Because we knew this would confuse most players at the time who wanted a specific style. Especially in our community who took little to no interest in the fantasy side of things.

The recreation of Terrain from the original map by seprinth is great to see. The doodads are well placed, the roads are clear. Its an amazing display of what ancient china would look translated to warcraft 3. I enjoyed that more than I enjoyed playing the map.

 

Overall: 6/10

The map is a great adaptation of Seprinth's work (Not sure who lordsquishy is I don't even know how his name got on the map) but it completely steered off what makes a great Romance of the three kingdoms map instead of a warcraft 3 map. This map simply became too warcraftish for a fan of the series to really enjoy and originally that's what the map was intended to do, introduce people to Romance of the three kingdoms, its history, events and drama. This map didn't hit that point, in fact this map simply said "Here, its another Azeroth Wars map with chinese models"

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hi1   

Great review on the map! I will try to explain some of my thoughts for the decisions I made.

First off, I am also a big fan of the ROTK series and the original novel. I have played 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 of the series, so for sure I am fully aware of the mechanics and layout of the original game itself. I enjoy implementing PvE elements into strategy games, as I find that it gets especially dry and repetitive when there is only PvP plays in the game. And which is why I added the White Bengal Tiger BOSS event, it serves as "Optional" side quests that people can unite together and attempt to kill it. It adds a slightly different gameplay than simply always fighting just to capture cities and expand your lands. At the same time, people feel accomplished for killing it as well! Of course, I understand that there is no such thing as Bengal Tigers making appearance in historical records during the Three Kingdoms Era, but this does not mean that the existence of White Tiger is completely irrelevant to the map. This map takes the setting in Ancient China, and White Tiger is apart of the Chinese Four Great Symbols, along with the Azure Dragon of the East, Vermillion Bird of the South, and Black Tortoise of the North. The legends regarding these four great beasts were passed down from the Chinese civilization that began 5000 years ago (even prior to the Shang Dynasty), which is way before the Three Kingdoms Era, and even until today, the White Tiger is a commonly regarded as a cultural symbol within the Chinese society. So, I do not think that the Bengal Tiger was such a bizarre add to the map. The Tiger event was also implemented to make use of the large empty space in the Southern China region in the map. I never had the intention of completely replicating the original ROTK game, and okay, so there was no white tiger in the original game, so does that make it ridiculous that it is in this map? It is arguable, but all I know is that it does add unique elements into this map.

In regards to the Japanese Army, I totally agree it is out of place in the timeline. I am fully aware that the Age of Samurais started from year 1185, which was very long after 200AD. Original idea was to implement the Roman Army; however, due to the lack of Roman unit models, the idea was shifted to the Japanese. Not sure if you had played the game in multiplayer or not, but the general trend is that nobody ever goes to kill the White Bengal Tiger for the item drop until they have already defeated all other players, which means that yes, they will get the Japanese Army as a reward, but that does not impact the gameplay in any ways since the game is already FINISHED! The White Bengal Tiger BOSS Event and the Japanese Army were just extra little add-ons to the map, just there for some laughs and fun, (made you guys laugh meaning it was effective :) ), it was never meant to be of big impact on gameplay. 

You mentioned that the map was intended to introduce people of the ROTK history, events and drama, yet I cannot see how Seprinth's version successfully did so, as his version had zero events occurring, so I am not exactly sure how you are introducing the history/drama when there was zero history happening in game. Conversely, I have added numerous historical and faction specific events like Yellow Turban Rebellion, Assassination of Dong Zhuo by Lu Bu, Battle of Guan Du, Oath of Peach Garden, Formation of Jin Dynasty, Yuan Shu as Emperor, Abdication of Han Emperor, Rise of Nanman..etc. What Seprinth's version also really lacked was faction uniqueness, every single Warlords had the exact same advantage, aside from different starting locations, which is why I introduced region specific special units, and faction specific events to add variety into each faction. Since v6.2b, I have been posting update announcement on the website, and with each new addition/change, I provide a very solid historical background to justify the changes/additions that I am making in the new versions, again the purpose is intended to INTRODUCE historical background of Three Kingdoms Era.

Now, to mention a few changes I have made, which you may had overlooked: First off, lets do not forget that in older versions, Zhou Yu was summoning Infernos, and Sun Jian was summoning Lava spawns! Is that not warcraftish at all..and is that very ROTK relevant? Secondly, a critical element that is really important in strategy games in general, which again was absent in older versions, was the unit counter system. Unit counter system is especially important, so you do not have people simply spamming a single unit type (eg. Cavalries) to win the entire game. There are a lot of changes to this map, yet you did not comment on a lot of them, so I am suspecting that you might have just not explored the map details enough to fully notice all the changes to the map.

Lastly, to give some credits to LordSquishy, his edits from Seprinth's original map were excellent, it made the original map a lot more fun and interesting, which is why I also credited LordSquishy as a previous author to the map.

 

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29 minutes ago, hi1 said:

Great review on the map! I will try to explain some of my thoughts for the decisions I made.

First off, I am also a big fan of the ROTK series and the original novel. I have played 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 of the series, so for sure I am fully aware of the mechanics and layout of the original game itself. I enjoy implementing PvE elements into strategy games, as I find that it gets especially dry and repetitive when there is only PvP plays in the game. And which is why I added the White Bengal Tiger BOSS event, it serves as "Optional" side quests that people can unite together and attempt to kill it. It adds a slightly different gameplay than simply always fighting just to capture cities and expand your lands. At the same time, people feel accomplished for killing it as well! Of course, I understand that there is no such thing as Bengal Tigers making appearance in historical records during the Three Kingdoms Era, but this does not mean that the existence of White Tiger is completely irrelevant to the map. This map takes the setting in Ancient China, and White Tiger is apart of the Chinese Four Great Symbols, along with the Azure Dragon of the East, Vermillion Bird of the South, and Black Tortoise of the North. The legends regarding these four great beasts were passed down from the Chinese civilization that began 5000 years ago (even prior to the Shang Dynasty), which is way before the Three Kingdoms Era, and even until today, the White Tiger is a commonly regarded as a cultural symbol within the Chinese society. So, I do not think that the Bengal Tiger was such a bizarre add to the map. The Tiger event was also implemented to make use of the large empty space in the Southern China region in the map. I never had the intention of completely replicating the original ROTK game, and okay, so there was no white tiger in the original game, so does that make it ridiculous that it is in this map? It is arguable, but all I know is that it does add unique elements into this map.

In regards to the Japanese Army, I totally agree it is out of place in the timeline. I am fully aware that the Age of Samurais started from year 1185, which was very long after 200AD. Original idea was to implement the Roman Army; however, due to the lack of Roman unit models, the idea was shifted to the Japanese. Not sure if you had played the game in multiplayer or not, but the general trend is that nobody ever goes to kill the White Bengal Tiger for the item drop until they have already defeated all other players, which means that yes, they will get the Japanese Army as a reward, but that does not impact the gameplay in any ways since the game is already FINISHED! The White Bengal Tiger BOSS Event and the Japanese Army were just extra little add-ons to the map, just there for some laughs and fun, (made you guys laugh meaning it was effective :) ), it was never meant to be of big impact on gameplay. 

You mentioned that the map was intended to introduce people of the ROTK history, events and drama, yet I cannot see how Seprinth's version successfully did so, as his version had zero events occurring, so I am not exactly sure how you are introducing the history/drama when there is zero history happening in game. Conversely, I have added numerous historical and faction specific events like Yellow Turban Rebellion, Assassination of Dong Zhuo by Lu Bu, Battle of Guan Du, Oath of Peach Garden, Formation of Jin Dynasty, Yuan Shu as Emperor, Abdication of Han Emperor, Rise of Nanman..etc. What Seprinth's version also really lacked was faction uniqueness, every single Warlords had the exact same advantage, aside from different starting locations, which is why I introduced region specific special units, and faction specific events to add variety into each faction. Since v6.2b, I have been posting update announcement on the website, and with each new addition/change, I provide a very solid historical background to justify the changes/additions that I am making in the new versions, again the purpose is intended to INTRODUCE historical background of Three Kingdoms Era.

Now, to mention a few changes I have made, which you may had overlooked: First off, lets do not forget that in older versions, Zhou Yu was summoning Infernos, and Sun Jian was summoning Lava spawns! Is that not warcraftish at all..and is that very ROTK relevant? A critical element that is really important in strategy games in general, which again was absent in older versions, was the unit counter system. Unit counter system is especially important, so you do not have people simply spamming a single unit type (eg. Cavalries) to win the entire game. There are a lot of changes to this map, yet you did not comment on a lot of them, so I am suspecting that you might have just not explored the map details enough to fully notice all the changes to the map.

Lastly, to give some credits to LordSquishy, his edits from Seprinth's original map were excellent, it made the original map a lot more fun and interesting, which is why I also credited LordSquishy as a previous author to the map.

 

Let me start off by saying Lordsquishy's edits weren't approved or communicated with the original author(s) (I'm one of the people who laid out the trigger basis for sep in fact I still have the 1.0 ver on my old laptop). The bengal is odd, no matter how you slice it. I think adding that to the map leans to a warcraft opposed to an actual Rotk map. It's a blatant fact, none of the rotk had this creature in it. But I can see your justification for adding it. The spice is nice but its too much spice.

As for the faction unique abilities, sep never got that far. Due to the lacking of interest at the time in the overall map process, in other words he got bored of the project and moved on to other ones. He had a way to lay out each faction based upon their area, their history as well as keeping balance in mind. The unit counter system is similar to rotk 11, In fact in my old ro3k map the unit counter system is literally the same thing seen in this map. Just a bit flipped on its head due to the vastness of units that are in place. I still feel as if i'm playing another Azeroth War clone, just with  rotk story line and renamed heroes. The rock papers scissors style combat didn't appeal to the dev team due to several complaints but that's another story. I personally love the style.

As for the original hero abilities, sep never got around to it because he got bored not much you can do in that perspective. My point is; Its no longer what it used to be it moved in a different direction that may have isolated the original planning of the map. I had hoped to see some more choices in terms of gameplay. Such as people deciding if they should be a hero or a lord, things of that nature (which lead to another project dynasty warriors unleashed). Ai driven factions as opposed to player factions (which was actually in the originally development of the map) Not once during the map as a huge fan of the ROTK series did I actually say "Man this is Romance of the three kingdoms" when sep initially released the map everyone got that feeling. But its almost non-existent here. What I would say is, go back to the drawing board. Figure out of way to combine the efforts of rotk 8-12 and find a medium balance.

The original idea of the map wasn't add several player driven scenarios in one map. The idea of the original map was for people to create their own. To do that players need control over the advantages of the content that is created for them as well as the drama they bring. What I mean by that is yes, there are yellow turbans, yes there is the emperor. But what are you going to do? That's the question the development team at DWE was placing in the hands of players. Which is why when we played the map we did kinda rubbed our foreheads a little too. Not because of frustration but because we felt like our work didn't really go in the direction we had hoped. However kudos to making a successful fan based map. Its really fun to the Warcraft player.

Your updates are very creative, I had hoped you were in contact with the original authors so we could help filter out some of the things that were added. But when I contacted sep, no such thing ever happened. So that is one of the major reasons why I am on this board.

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hi1   

Hm I suppose I was not very well aware of the original layout and direction of the map, I just took the map and transformed it in a way that I thought would be fun for me, as well as other players. I simply do enjoy having events and scenarios that players can trigger themselves, because it is a very rewarding feeling to have a more pronounced reaction due to a decision you made in game, and the events themselves add another layer of complexity to the map. I doubt players without prior knowledge of the Three Kingdoms background would be able to come up with their own scenarios very well, so in a way the events do steer them through a little bit of the history as well.

I also had the idea of making the remaining two player slots into Rogue factions, where those players focus on hero gameplay instead of managing armies and income development. However, it is already hard to get a full house going with the game, so I decided to maintain the capacity at 10 players in the map. Tbh I don't enjoy having hero solo gameplay in this type of rts game because there is basically no more strategy involved when you are simply hitting and running or kiting.

Just curious, is there any Warcraft maps that are currently being developed by the DW Community? Because I would love to share my models in my map if any DW map makers are interested.

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